pranam

very informative & nice article.

thanks for giving us such a great knowledge.

thanks

I understand the your point that in terms of jyotish these have to be differenciated unlike in sadhana.

But this is the big question. How is the differenciation going to be made? If we take the shastras and decide on this then there can be many conflicts that arise. As you rightly said Krishna also mentions that he is Rama as well as Brihaspati among many other things. Vishnu as per the scriptures (if we take a literal interpretation) is the son of Aditi in the vamana avatara in the vishnu puran. I have not yet had the good fortune of meeting any real vaishnavas, so I am surprised to hear that they worship the six armed form of krishna.
The Tantrarajatantra mentions Lalita taking the form of Krishna with six bhavas as well as six hands indicating the six senses in order to entices women. If you are referring to some other shatra it would be great if you can provide the references. Will try and read the same. Because the tantrarajatantra does not say this krishna has a diffrent function from the krishna of mahabharata. All it does is gives a different story for the origin of krishna.
Similarly if we read the various shastras litrally we often find contradictions on the surface. The shiva texts describe Shiva as the highest where as the vaisnava texts dscribe vishnu as the highest just as the devi bhagwatam says nothing is beyonf the devi. So if we try to apply the texts literally and use our limited logic to find sense out of it, we will keep moving in endless circles depleting our mental energies and achiving no results. Because again if just logic is used, then Narayana whos name comes from nara and ayana (movement) should also be in the 9th house. The movement of the soul or the necessary guidance comes from narayana. And lord Shiva of course is the adi guru so naturally ninth house. But I guess tehse interpretations will never be able to get to the truth behind the apparent contradictions of the shastras because they are not ment to be understood by logic which again is a fundamental construct and hence a limitation of our average human mind. Only the really spiritually advanced can probably can go behind the scene and understand in depth every meanign, every story.

Anyway I wish the Adi Guru blesses us all with real understanding and knowledge.

-Regards
Rajarshi

And all the above also indicates why Rudra is referred as equivalent to Agni when it comes to tattvas and hence Mars and Shiva is ~ Agni~Sun when it comes to planets per se.

One thing for sure, what is in those texts can’t simply be taken at face value.

But the ‘Kumara’ of the Shatapatha Brahman (Sukla YV), who was given the additoional names of “Rudra”, Sarva, Bhava, Ugra, Asani, Pasupati, Mahadeva, Isana (equivalent to the astamurti Shiva of Shiva Purana); is referred to as the 9th tongue of Agni.

so if Rudra was a byproduct of Prajapati (?Brahma) and Ushas (@ Satapatha Brahmana of Sukl YV), then Who (?Shiva of the 8 forms) was it that punished Brahma for the act and became the Kapalika!

Seems like a never ending spiral.

Best Regards,
SS

So, if Maruts (~ Rudras @ rigveda) are sons of Rudra (@ Rigveda) it’s no wonder that Hanuman down the timeline been called MAruti and mentioned as(?amsha)avatara of Rudra/Shiva.

So may be He is not actually the 11th Rudra, but an (?11th?) avatara (?ansha) of Rudra (~Shiva).

It is interesting to see observe that Yajurveda describes Rudra as fierce form of Shiva that needs to be appeased.

Also interesting is to see the nature of Mitra, Aryaman, Parjanya etc. (~ 12 adityas elsewhere) as mentioned in Rigveda.

Best Regards,
SS

Rajarshi
For spiritual purposes its good to see everything as one, but Jyotishis must see the difference. If Krishna said that he is also Rama and Brhaspati, then what sort of discernment are you going to make in a chart then? Your example is therefore very much taken out of context.

Veda Vyasa is an avatara of Narayana as Vyasa clearly has indicated in the Mahabharata, so therefore the Narayana-bhava should be the point of reference for Vyasa mantra.
Now what does that mean, because he said he is not a Vishnu Avatara? Did you know that Vishnu is one of the twelve sons of Aditi? Its clearly indicated in the Puranas, and also that Vishnu conquered the world previously ruled by Indra and would take birth repeatedly to establish dharma and give mukti to all souls. This certainly speaks very highly of the greatness of Vishnu and makes him all worshippable. This is the ‘avatara’ form. The Krishna that most Vaishnavas worship is not this Vishnu-avatara form but the six-armed Krishna depicted with the flute and kamadhenu who holds a completely different task. People who don’t know this just club everything together as one Vishnu, which is a very easy mistake to make and does give rise to all sorts of name-conflicts, which i do not wish to invite here.

Vijay
I think the Mahabharata has the reference which most people qoute.
The mantra is right… yes two times.

SS
Your on the right track, study the Maruts and the Rudras and see their similarities.

Yours sincerely, Visti

Many thanx again.

Best Regards,
SS

In Tulisdas-krta Hanuman Chalisa, Hanumanji is referred to as Shankara-suvana (Son of Shiva), Kesari-nandan and Pavan-tanay.
(of course u wud be aware of the story of His birth to Kesari and Anjana following prayers by Anjana to Shiva, via Vayu deva - who dropped the pudding - or is that an alleged allegory - to Anjana).
As u mentioned earlier, Rudra is sometimes considered synonymous with Shiva, hence may be over a period of time Hanuman must have come to be referred to as Rudra-avatara or whichever (11th?) Rudra - however, at best He seems to be Ansha-avatara of Shiva, as were Shvetamuni, Rishabhadeva, Durvasa, Ashvathhama (the 4latter being described in ShivaPurana).
And if He represents the “prana vayu” (as ‘they’ say), then He can be considered as one of the 11 Rudras (viz. those representing the 10 vayus in human body and the soul that leaves the bosy at death) - dunno what u’d have to say about that.

Btw, in Shatarudra Samhita, Shiva is also referred to as Rudra-deva!

Anywyas, this can go on and on - but thanx for all the discussion.

Just a few doubts.

1. Will you please elaborate on Hanumanji as Rudra avatar. Scriptual references, if any ?

2. Please confirm the agni mantra for Gemini lagna as Om hrum hrum chaitanyai namah (hrum is repeated 2 times, isn’t it ?).

Thanks,

Vijay Kumar

I dont undrstand the difference between Hari and Narayan. Now if we make this kind of distingtion then Krishna is different from Vishnu or Hari or Narayan and in the Gita Krishna says he is ved-vyas. So vyas should ideally not sit even in fist house since it is Narayan’s house and not Krishnas?

-Regards
Rajarshi

SS
Mahesvara is one of the 11 Rudras, which means one of the 11 rudras takes on the act of liberating the soul. Hanuman is a Rudra but is an incarnation of one of the 11 Rudras. The reference to him being an incarnation of Rudra is in the Ramayana, but it doesn’t speak of which Rudra.

Rajarshi
Second house is the house of Hari whilst Lagna is Narayana. The difference in names is not abitrary and Vyasa would normally not sit in this house.

The mantra bhoga shows the fruit/promiss of the mantra.

Yours sincerely, Visti.

Excellent write up! Very informative. I have a question regarding mantras. You have mentioned vyam vyasdevayah nama is a prasiddha mantra as the devata sits in lagna, the house of vishnu and vyas deva is amsa of vishnu. Now if we add om vyam vasdevayah nama then the mantra becomes 4 words and 9 syllables and teh mantra debata sits in second house. Now second is also the house of the food we eat, if we use that logic, hence it sustains us, hence Vishnu would sit here (infact Vishnu is sarva vyapi. he can sit anywhere!).. then why is this not a prasiddha mantra..

Again if a certain mantra promises a certain thing like in many different mantra, the how does the indication of the mantra change or interact with the houses of mantra kriya and bhoga..

-Regards
Rajarshi

While performing Sri Rudram, is the an offering made to Hanumanji as one of the 11 main Rudras?

Also, of 11 Rudras, 1 is Maheshvara, is there any jyotisha definition of Hanuman (as there is for Maheshvara)?

Best Regards,
SS

Can you please indicate the reference where Hanuman is listed among 11 main Rudras (cudnt find that in Shiva Purana).

Thanx for the hint wrt beejas.

Best Regards,
SS

SS
Hanuman is a Rudra… one of the 44.000 Rudras. Essentially he is a form of one of the main 11 Rudras. The Rudras hold the creation in place and when they leave so does one aspect of creation. Hence in a chart there are 11 Rudras and one of these causes the Soul to leave and will be Mahesvara for you. There are 11 Rudras and 1 Brahma, hence the equation of 11+1=12.

Study the semivowels and their link to the Moon to understand the beejas for the atmalinga.

Rishabh
Its difficult and not advisable.
As for six syllable mantras, there is no problem if the mantra is Prasiddha, just like Hare Rama Krishna| or Om Vishnave Namah|

Yours sincerely, Visti

Yes, I think (we know) one needs to look beyond the obvious to make sense of it all and fit it into Reality. It is easy to get confused, as u put it earlier.

I do understand the part where Brahma created Rudra to give rise to Creation (and the rest of the story), however, in Shiva Purana, the description of 11 Rudras that is given, doesn’t indicate Hanuman as the 11th Rudra - though many say that He is so!

(Besides, what 11 Rudras signify wrt the Creation - viz, the 10 pranas and Maheshwara is another direction of discussion).

The Ashta-murti of Shiva description is followed by sloka 15-17 (Shatarudra Samhita) that indicate how the human seemingly gets entangled in the 8 bandhanas – however, i was confused with why the different description was given later on - but then, again, the lesson is to look beyond the obvious - thanx for discussing it out. Else, in the Kailash Samhita of Shiva Purana, Paramatman_Shiva is also referred to by 8 names (incidentally 8?) among which one is “Vishnu” (others being Shiva, Maheshvara, Rudra, Pitamaha, Samsara Vaidya; Sarvatra, Paramatman); while earlier in the Shiva Purana we find listed the Shiva Sahasranama given by “Vishnu” (!).

The situation, if very crudely put, is like describing various components of milk (following churning or any kinda treatment of milk and calling them cheese, ghee, curd etc.) but then finally understanding that all this is but milk appearing in various forms; as elsewhere in Shiva Purana, it is mentioned that Brahma, Vishnu, Rudra, Maheshwara, Sadashiva are but forms of Shankara (while eliciting the Advaita Gyana).

The idea, again, is to look beyond the obvious; else one doesn’t get to understand why in the Mahishasuramardini Stotram, The Mother is referred to as “Vishnu-vilaasini” at one place and as “Shankara-toshini” at another.

Anyways, this can go on and on! But the discussion did help me rethink over why “Ksham” is the beeja used for Ra (wrt Atmalinga, as remover of poison @ Garuda beeja), when elsewhere (Gandharva Tantra – Graha Nyasa) beeja Ham is ascribed to Rahu and Ksham to Ketu.

Hoping to figure out why Sam and Sham are used for Su and Mo wrt Atmalinga mantras (something to do with the Varnamala?), since elsewhere, Sham is used as beeja for Shani.

Best Regards,
SS

Rafal
Yes.

Rishabh
If sixth lord is in the fifth house it can be difficult to recite the panchakshari (namah shivaaya). Not so with the Shadakshari.

SS
Yes thats the right stotra.

The reason there is a difference is ingrained in the concept of all Devatas. Shiva states the use of the Ashta-murti for removing bandhana earlier, and this is the list we must apply for worship. Brahma then later worship the Ashta-murti and describes their forms, and is what you have given.

Why the difference? Answer: Worship is performed to remove the negatives of a particular aspect of our life. I.e. for Venus problems we are required to worship Mother Lakshmi. But in that we refer to Lakshmi as a mother it means we are refferring to the Moon aren’t we? So in this case we are purifying Venus who is always caught up in the pursuint of the best possible partners in life and making him (kamadevata) settle down and get married. So the true form of Sri Lakshmi is one of the Moon, but she removes the doshas of Venus.
This also becomes very apparent when we look towards the mahavidyas, i.e. how is it that the Mother depicted without a head (Chinnamasta) doesn’t correspond to the headless Ketu but instead to Rahu? And how did the widow (Dhoomavati) become Ketu instead of Rahu who normally indicates a widow?
I hope this settles your confusion. This is applicable to ALL lists of Devatas and Grahas.

As for Rudra, this is not the same as Shiva. Many club them together but this is not so. So this is a completely different area of study. Note that Rudra is Brahma’s son, Shiva is not.

Hope this helps.
Yours sincerely, Visti Larsen

I can’t agree better. Infact, in a thread on Rohinaa (Rafal’s site), we had a discussion about the Atmalingas as derived from Shiva Purana - but 2 variants seem to exist in 2 different Samhitas.

From the Shatarudra Samhita (of Shiva Purana) that i quote below:

“SharvoBhavastathaa Rudra Ugrobheemaha Pashopatihi
Eeshaanashcha Mahadevo Moortyschaashtvishrutaaha II3II
BhoomyAmbho_AgniMarudhVyomaKsheytragyarkNishaakaraha I
Adhishtascha Sharvaadyayaashtaroopayi Shivasya hi II 4 II”

Sharva ~ Bhoomi (Earth/Prithvi)
Bhava ~ Ambu (Water / Jala)
Rudra ~ Agni (Fire/Agni)
Ugra ~ Marut (Vayu / Air)
Bheema ~ Vyoma (Akaasha)
Pashupati ~ Kshetragya (Knower of the field)
Eeshana ~ Arka (Sun)
Mahadeva ~ Nishaakara (Moon)

While the other one in the Vayaviya Samhita which i quote below:

ShivPurana – Vayaveeya Samhita, Poorvakhanda: Adhyaya 12

“Namaste Bhagwan Rudra Bhaskaraamita_tejasey
Namo Bhavaya devaya rasaambumayaatmane
Sharvaaya Kshitiroopaya Nandisurabhaye namah II 41II
Eeshaaya vasave tubhyam Namas_sparshmayaatmane
Pashunaam Pataye Chaiv Paavakaayatitejase
Bheemaya Vyomaroopaya Shabdmaatraaya te Namah II42II
Ugraayograsvaroopaya Yajamaanatmane Namah
Mahaadevaya Somaaya Namostavamritmoortaye II43II”

Rudra = Bhaskara = Sun
Bhava = rasa = taste (~ Jala/Water)
Sharva = kshiti = Earth/Prithvi
Eeshana = sparsha = touch (~ Vayu/Air)
Pashupati = Paavaka = (Agni/Fire)
Bheema = Vyoma, shabda = Aakasha, sound
Ugra = Yajamaana (overseer of the yagya)
Mahadeva = Soma = Moon

Between the 2:
Bhava, Sharva, Bheema and Mahadeva remain same,
but the other 4 vary.

Elsewhere, in other puranas (?Markandeya, Brahmanda), Rudra is signified as Su, who with His Shakti Suvarchala produced Shani, while Mahadeva (~Mo) with Rohini produced Buddha (Mer), Bhava (~ water) with Usa/Dhatri produced Shukra (Ve) etc. However, in this classification, the progeny includes only 4 grahas (Sa, Ve, Ma, Me) and rest are Manojava, Skanda, Svarga, Santana - which i dont understand if they have any correspondence within the 8-charakaraka scheme.

May be u can add your comment in your thread (here or whichever u consider appropriate).

In the method of diksha u mention in the above message, the (Shadakshari) “Stotram” (starting from Omkara Bindu Samyuktam…) has to be recited to recieve diksha for the “Mantra”? (wanted to be sure).

Many thanx
SS

Its agni tattva due to ‘i’.

Regards
Rafal Gendarz

I can’t agree better. Infact, in a thread on Rohinaa (Rafal’s site), we had a discussion about the Atmalingas as derived from Shiva Purana - but 2 variants seem to exist in 2 different Samhitas.
http://rohinaa.com/index.php/2007/12/13/ishta-devata/#comment-866
and
http://rohinaa.com/index.php/2007/12/13/ishta-devata/#comment-848

May be u can add your comment in your thread (here or whichever u consider appropriate).

In the method of diksha u mention in the above message, the (Shadakshari) “Stotram” (starting from Omkara Bindu Samyuktam…) has to be recited to recieve diksha for the “Mantra”? (wanted to be sure).

Many thanx
SS

Yours sincerely, Visti Larsen

This is interesting and deep, but in VRA (pg 118) “Om Namah Shivaya” is listed under mantras exempt from tests (of suitability) - what should we infer from here?

Also, in the following link for Opening Lecture of Vyasa SJC California, “Om Namah Shivaya” is being referred to as Prasiddha Mantra.

Quote:
“The other prasiddha mantras are like “Om Namah Shivaya,” “ Om Vishnave Namah.” These are prasiddha; you do not need anybody to give you this mantra; of course if you can get a diksha there’s nothing like it. But it is advised that you start doing it. ”

Reference Link:
http://www.shrifreedom.com/VyasaSJC/OpeningLecture.htm

That does make all this a bit confusing!

Best Regards,
SS

Sloka 40 says this:
praNavenaadisaMyuktaM braahmaNaanaaM vishiSyate.
dIkSaayuktaM gurorgrahyaM mantraM hyatha phalaaptaye..40..

Pranava enjoined the mantra (panchakshara is referred to in sloka 39) should be done by the Brahmanas, and to get the phala/fruit of this mantra one should receive diksha(initiation) from a Guru.

Comment: It is advised in the Purana for ALL to recite ‘AUM’ for worship of the Shiva Linga, and ‘namah shivaaya’ for worship of the image of Shiva. But, distinctly it is here advised that AUM should be ADDED to the panchakshari if one is a Brahmana, and the fruits of this will come from Guru diksha. So one can infer that the panchakshari mantra is prasiddha, or doesn’t require Diksha.

Rafal, the counting of words and aksharas is the means to establish if a mantra is prasiddha or not. But, there is more to this, as despite a mantra having the mantradevata in the appropriate bhava, some may replace parts of the mantra with bijas which require initiation.

Example: There are two Vyasa astakshari mantras:
i) vyAM vyAsadevAya namaH|
ii) vyAM vedavyAsAya namaH|

Both have three words (mantrakriya = 3rd), eight aksharas (mantrabhoga = 8th) and the Mantradevata falls in the first house. First house is the seat of Narayana which Vyasa is an amsa-avatara of. So both are alike but now see the words used in the mantra.

In mantra #i the bija ‘vyAM’ is the bija of the name ‘vyAsa’.
In mantra #ii the bija ‘vyAM’ is NOT the bija of the name ‘vedavyAsa’. Therefore mantra #ii is NOT prasiddha and one requires initiation of this mantra.

Your next question should be: how to find the nama bija?
Name: Rafal. ‘ra’ is the first syllable and ‘fa’ is the second one. ‘fa’ belongs to the tatva of Agni, and among the vowels/svaras the i-akshara is Agni (a,i,u,e,o). Short vowels are ‘laghu’ and long vowels are ‘guru’. Gurvakshara gives mukti. The long ‘ii’ is therefore added to the first syllable and ended by the anusvara (M), viz.: r+ii+M. So your bija is ‘riiM’. The namabija gives mukti from the cause of rebirth… Agni was the vowel which created you and its dirgha or longer vowel will give mukti from the same.

Can you do the same with my name ‘visti’? The second akshara is ‘i’. Which tatva brought me here?

Yours sincerely, Visti Larsen

Can you provide in which sloka it says its prasiddha?

What is the other non-jyotish method/source to know which mantras are prasiddha?

Regards
Rafal Gendarz

For /om namah shivaya/ mantra devata stands in the ninth bhava which is house of Vishnu and this mantra is also prasiddha..so the rule you mentioned dont work in opposite way?

Regards
Rafal Gendarz